David McFadden & George Bowering Joint Interview

Interviewees: George Bowering, David McFadden & Merlin Homer

Interviewers: Jason Camlot

AV: Ashley Clarkson

October 12^th, 2012

Concordia University, Montreal, QC, 10th LB Building

 

Jason Camlot

00:00:01.90

It is alike a discount clothing store (laughing)

George Bowering

00:00:04.62

Ohh, mine come--

Jason Camlot

00:00:04.70

But they have fancy looks to their discount clothes (laughing)

George Bowering

00:00:05.90

Yeah, my came from Mark's Work Warehouse I think

Jason Camlot

00:00:11.77

Fine pair of jeans (laughing)

Unknown

00:00:12.91

Laughter

George Bowering

00:00:15.42

7.25$

Merlin Homer

00:00:16.45

I think it's time the fashonites stop competing about how cheap your jeans are (laughing)

Unknown

00:00:23.35

Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:00:30.71

So before we begin we'll say the date again because you know it's a separate recording and I believe it is October the 12 2012. David is checking to make sure

David McFadden

00:00:44.60

It is Friday even

George Bowering

00:00:44.70

Ohhh, if October was only the twelfth month it would be 12/12/12

Jason Camlot

00:00:49.65

Ah

Ashley Clarkson

00:00:55.02

Yeah yesterday it was 11/10/12 ah…I mean 10/11/12

Merlin Homer

00:00:55.12

That was yesterday

George Bowering

00:00:55.80

It's not 10/11/12 are you an American?

Ashley Clarkson

00:00:55.80

Yeah yesterday

Ashley Clarkson

00:01:08.02

Um no yesterday was the 10th day wait...oh wait no...

George Bowering

00:01:08.15

You go day/month/year

Jason Camlot

00:01:08.15

Before we begin I am going to ask you to read this over, this is so we can use the video on the website that we have going and I will give one to you as well

Merlin Homer

00:01:08.15

10month 11thday

Merlin Homer

00:01:19.70

Um can I just sign my name and you fill it in

Jason Camlot

00:01:21.75

Yeah you could just sign it if you want and I will just fill out the rest

George Bowering

00:01:21.75

This is so long...nobody is going to read all this!

David McFadden

00:01:29.28

Do you have another pen by any chance?

Jason Camlot

00:01:31.77

Um yeah

George Bowering

00:01:31.77

(reads consent form out loud in the background)

George Bowering

00:01:35.80

Ok that's all right that's fine--check only one option, oh Jesus

Unknown

00:02:02.10

Group laughter

George Bowering

00:02:02.10

Is this about the CSIS?

George Bowering

00:02:04.21

I consent to have my interview available to the CSIS. O I am just going to the check open, why not?

Jason Camlot

00:02:15.27

Yeah it is basically asking you if we can use what we-the conservation that we record open access

George Bowering

00:02:19.28

Yeah, wait a minute how can I say that if I don't know what I said in the conversation?

Jason Camlot

00:02:24.78

Well afterwards if you want to revoke it you can end the conversation at any time

Unknown

00:02:31.00

Sneeze

George Bowering

00:02:31.10

Oh alright...well I chose the following alias- David W. McFadden

David McFadden

00:02:34.51

Laughing

George Bowering

00:02:44.12

I've published poems under that name before

David McFadden

00:02:44.12

Oh yeah?

Merlin Homer

00:02:44.22

That's probably all the good ones, right?

George Bowering

00:02:46.14

Yeah, I don't get to envy you because I usually envy Fred Roy because when he writes his name it is seven letters

Unknown

00:02:54.04

Laughter

George Bowering

00:02:56.85

Fred Roy seven letters...god that’s why I always sign his name instead of my own cause mine is so long

Jason Camlot

00:03:17.39

David W. McFadden jeez

00:03:18.31

Group Laughter

Merlin Homer

00:03:20.91

Cause there is another guy in Toronto named David McFadden, a fairly eminent lawyer, and they kept getting each other's phone calls

George Bowering

00:03:26.94

Oh yeah, I finally met the other George Bowering. The guy who for years and years has been throwing away my mail.

Unknown

00:03:46.29

Laughter

George Bowering

00:03:46.49

He told Sharon that one time it was really weird we were at the ball game and Jean had ordered some tickets to pick up right? For she and I and Auggy but there were only two tickets in there and she said oh so she let me and Auggy go and went back and got a third ticket. Then this other couple of guys came up and said, "You're sitting in my seat" and I said no and I showed him my ticket and he said, "Well I got the same number as you have" and he said so I will just sit down here. Then Jean turns around to the guy and says "what's your name?" and he said George Bowering and he said that he got three tickets so he sold the other one

George Bowering

00:04:29.31

Group Laughter

David McFadden

00:04:32.66

Boing

George Bowering

00:04:35.96

Yeah boy...

David McFadden

00:04:37.97

Yup, you make up the strangest stories laughing

 

Jason Camlot

00:04:44.27

So as I was saying we are in the tenth floor of the hall building in Montreal Quebec. In the room, I am Jason Camlot, Ashley Clarkson is running the camera and um-

David McFadden

00:05:06.02

Dave McFadden

Merlin Homer

00:05:06.02

Merlin Homer

George Bowering

00:05:06.12

and George Bowering

David McFadden

00:05:06.12

I will make that David W. McFadden

George Bowering

00:05:07.49

George W. Bowering

Jason Camlot

00:05:10.21

And I just spent well over an hour talking to David about poetry reading in the sixties and poetry in his life as a poet and um, and now for a little while we'll have George and David together answering questions maybe a little bit more focused on the period so what the poetry scene was in the sixties and just any memories or stories that you guys share. You might even help each other and jog each other's memories being together here

Jason Camlot

00:05:45.98

So I will start with a general question again, I will ask you a whole other series of questions when we're alone after. Turning more to what the core question is to start with is what these poetry events really meant in the sixties? It seemed like for a while that the poetry was read out loud in the classroom a lot in the early party of the twentieth century, but reading really became important again like in the mid sixties and seventies. The Sir George Williams poetry series that we have a record of is a great example of this series and I just think it is interesting to try and fill in some of the blanks about what the significance of these readings was...

George Bowering

00:06:35.10

Well in the fifties there were some poets who were famous for reading their poetry out loud like Dylan Thomas but before that and such. But it was thought of as a kind of...not a circus but not the main route for poetry, it was thought of, "oh that guy has a gift and a desire to travel across the country reading poetry and so forth." It didn't happen usually, but somehow or another, but 1960 something like that, the idea of reading to an audience became...well it happened--I guess it probably happened first in places where Jazz was played or Blues was played and then one day there would be a poetry reading in places like New York or Sans Francesco and eventually us folks (laughing).

Jason Camlot

00:07:34.22

So you think it was sort of what we call, retrospect fully like the Beat..

George Bowering

00:07:40.90

Partly yeah, but partly the other folks too like um, well we didn't have the Canada Council paying people to do poetry in those does and wasn't paying universities or art galleries to hold poetry readings.   So if you wanted to do that you had to be very committed to the whole thing and not just like leave it to you know...

Jason Camlot

00:08:00.72

Someone else

George Bowering

00:08:00.72

Yeah some bureaucracy to take care of it…so I um, and you had to know that there was-like in anything else there was going to be a lot of crude. Like if you were going to go to the lonely Windjammer Pub or something hear what was going on whether it was a Blues singer or a poet. Quite often you think that you'd be prepared to think that, "well it's kind of an interesting fun night out but it is not really good poetry." Then sometimes it would be tremendous poetry, such as you would get from writers like oh, David McFadden. (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:08:40.51

So you mentioned, and I am just sort of thinking, what were the venues for reading poetry? Lets say from the mid-sixties on, so you mentioned pubs um...

George Bowering

00:08:49.55

Not pubs, not pubs

Jason Camlot

00:08:51.17

Oh not pubs, so where did you go to see poetry? So universities obviously was one venue and-

Jason Camlot

00:08:55.11

Coffee shops ok…so what is a coffee shop? What did a coffee shop mean then? I don't think it means the same thing as going to Starbucks today

George Bowering

00:08:55.11

Coffee shops

George Bowering

00:09:01.66

No, No (laughing) it was usually run by amateur kids who might be students on the side and the tables-it would be dark and the walls would be painted black and there were

David McFadden

00:09:12.49

(laughing) yeah right

George Bowering

00:09:13.18

Yeah! and at every table there would be a candy bottle with lots of melted wax on it

David McFadden

00:09:16.93

Laughing Oh yeah that's right I remember that

George Bowering

00:09:20.44

Then there might or might not be a microphone for the people doing the readings...certainly not in pubs. Well there weren't pubs in those days, there were beer parlors downtown but there weren't any places like that. In fact, it was illegal to sing or read poetry or any of that stuff in a beer parlor. You couldn't even stand up and carry your glass to another table

Merlin Homer

00:09:47.00

Was that true in Montreal as well as in Toronto and Ontario?

George Bowering

00:09:54.82

Well I will tell you one thing we were making a film in Montreal one time ah, me and ah...a French Canadian poet, and we were in a bistro up here on Mountain street The Bistro it was called and um, half the film was made for Quebec television and the other half for Ontario-Noo! They were both made-yeah anyway every time the camera was going to be turned on someone would come out and take our beers away

David McFadden

00:10:24.52

David whistles and laughs

George Bowering

00:10:26.17

(laughs) yeah and that was the year of the great blizzard and that was in probably 1968

Jason Camlot

00:10:38.96

So yeah lets continue on a little bit about this anatomy of venues. The coffee house is one venue for poetry readings and the university lecture hall or classroom in beer halls you were allowed reading because you weren't allowed performance and was a beer hall different then a tavern or a bar? Were those different kinds of venues?!

George Bowering

00:11:03.65

They did in Montreal but not elsewhere

Jason Camlot

00:11:04.84

Oh ok

George Bowering

00:11:06.33

Can you read in art galleries? How early did you read in places like Acebase or something like that because these independent art galleries began showing up I think in the sixties-late sixties

David McFadden

00:11:15.81

I think so yeah-like sixty-five or something like that

George Bowering

00:11:18.16

Yeah and they were really important and they were usually run by artists

Merlin Homer

00:11:24.62

Artists run galleries that’s what they were called

George Bowering

00:11:26.78

Yeah

Jason Camlot

00:11:26.78

Artists run galleries that were venues for poetry readings. Because the Sir George Williams series began the first year it began in the art gallery that was in the Hall building at the time. So really the first readings that took place in a gallery space so obviously that was something that they had in mind but it wasn't large enough to contain the amount of people who were attending the readings so they moved to classrooms and H-110 where the reading tonight is going to take place actually. So galleries-so that's really interesting and I would like to hear a little bit more about-do you remember seeing any readings in coffeehouses? Cause you mentioned that you could read poetry or play music in a beer parlor, but probably in the coffee houses you had poetry and music together and that wouldn't have been a strange thing to see someone with a guitar and then someone reading a poem right?

George Bowering

00:12:21.13

Well I have even heard of poets doing a reading in a cow suit

Unknown

00:12:23.57

Group laughter

David McFadden

00:12:24.61

Oh yeah!!

Unknown

00:12:26.77

Group laughter

George Bowering

00:12:28.23

That was a few years later but-

George Bowering

00:12:31.58

I wish I had been there! But apparently nobody could hear what he was saying (laughing)

David McFadden

00:12:31.58

That's true

Jason Camlot

00:12:35.25

He was wearing a cow suit while he was reading poetry? Where was that?

George Bowering

00:12:37.57

Where was that? It wasn't--

David McFadden

00:12:39.26

Umm, I can't remember exactly where that was now

George Bowering

00:12:44.35

Was that for book thugs?

George Bowering

00:12:49.44

Yeah, was that for your book thugs reading or was that an earlier version of that poem?

David McFadden

00:12:49.44

It was in Toronto of course

David McFadden

00:12:52.87

I can't remember all I know is that I rented the outfit and I got all dressed up with a huge--(laughter as he references his head)

Unknown

00:13:02.36

Group laughter

David McFadden

00:13:03.17

Cow um head and I just got on the street car

Unknown

00:13:11.86

Group laughter & George slaps his knee slapping

David McFadden

00:13:14.03

A crowded street car!

Unknown

00:13:19.42

Continued laughter

David McFadden

00:13:19.42

and everyone was just sort of looking back and looking back and giving me looks like...oh

George Bowering

00:13:23.26

(laughing) That is wonderful

David McFadden

00:13:24.46

Yeah

Jason Camlot

00:13:25.56

So you showed up in your cow suit for the reading?

George Bowering

00:13:28.00

and apparently nobody could hear a word he said (laughing)

David McFadden

00:13:28.00

Yeah, yeah

Jason Camlot

00:13:32.23

Were you holding the book or poems in your...hoofs?

David McFadden

00:13:34.13

Yeah, yeah I did... yup

Unknown

00:13:35.95

Laughter

George Bowering

00:13:37.80

That was the famous "Cow That Swam Lake Ontario" Poem

David McFadden

00:13:40.83

Yeah

George Bowering

00:13:41.47

I know-Oh I just thought about another venue, one time I went to a- the first time I ever went to Maple Leaf Gardens to see the Toronot Maple leafs play he was with me and he was carrying a little suitcase and at the end of the game as everybody was leaving, eighteen thousand people getting up to leave McFadden yells "Wait! Wait! I have poems to read to you!"

Unknown

00:14:08.25

Group Laughter

George Bowering

00:14:08.35

Yup, Yup didn't work would have been wonderful

Jason Camlot

00:14:15.04

The largest poetry audience ever

David McFadden

00:14:19.35

Not one person-

Jason Camlot

00:14:20.12

Group laughter

George Bowering

00:14:20.12

No not one person stopped

George Bowering

00:14:23.20

Yeah poetry is not very popular at Maple Leaf Gardens. I mean even David Young ran away!

Unknown

00:14:31.18

Group Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:14:33.10

So I was speaking to Howard Fink yesterday and he was the one who y'know confirmed that the first readings were in the gallery. That took place in the new Hall building as it had just been built really and he said that they had been inspired because there were readings happening all over the place by that time that we should do our own reading series y'know. That was the first year and they put that program together, Roy Kiookya, Irving Layton, Howard, Stanton Hoffman were involved in the initial programming and this was in 1966-67 and they you arrive din Montreal the next year I believe?!

George Bowering

00:15:16.47

I read in that first year

Jason Camlot

00:15:16.47

Yeah you were invited to read in the first series. Do you remember that reading at all?

George Bowering

00:15:23.12

Mmm..

Jason Camlot

00:15:23.12

Not very much? or where it was even?

George Bowering

00:15:23.72

I think I may have read with Victor Coleman, I think, I think I read with Victor Coleman and when I think about that poetry reading I always put it into the faculty club that was on the twelfth floor or something like that...

Jason Camlot

00:15:38.52

Of the Hall building?

George Bowering

00:15:38.72

Yeah, look what you people in Quebec called East, but what we people out West would call north

Jason Camlot

00:15:46.27

Laughing

George Bowering

00:15:47.77

and I think Dave's reading was in that one I am not sure, but I don't remember much about that reading at all

Jason Camlot

00:15:56.13

No...do you remember-do you remember- I mean before I ask you specifically about Dave's reading how would you describe the readings in the first year that you were there? So this was after you were invited to read and when you got involved you joined the committee...

George Bowering

00:16:12.55

It was tremendously exciting. The names of the poets were just-I was lucky they were all my favorite poets and BIG important poets from the United States and Canada ahh, that I would have despaired of ever being able to hear. I mean I would go down and say that it was the greatest reading series ever, anywhere. Well there were two great reading series in Canada that one and the one that Warren Tallmen ran in Vancouver which was for an audience of 800 which is a totally different venue

David McFadden

00:16:45.92

Oh I remember that one!

David McFadden

00:16:45.92

I was there

George Bowering

00:16:45.92

It was just--

George Bowering

00:16:48.51

Laughing yeah you were there! You were there yeah no, because there were people like Robert Duncan and Robert Creeley and Oppenheim and George Oppen and all these amazing people! I missed- the first year they had Margaret Avison who used to read about once every ten years. Um, the only time that I ever got her to-or heard her read was when I had to read with her in Windsor to get her to do that. Marvelous and John Wieners came that year I didn't see him and Robert Kelly I had never got to hear him read ever. He was at this series so it was just marvelous and it was done very professionally I must say because Canada Council never paid a cent for it so I don't know who did but they stayed at the Ritz-Carlton and we had room-service--

George Bowering

00:17:39.69

Yeah remember? Then we had a big party-I can't remember where your party was but each of the people involved had a party at their place and we'd take turns. The party was catered with wonderful food and drinks and everything it was just marvelous, it was just great and I have never seen anything like it since.

David McFadden

00:17:39.69

The Ritz-Carlton that's right

Jason Camlot

00:18:00.49

So it was a well-funded series. Do you remember-do you remember staying at the Ritz-Carleton? Does that ring a bell for you?

David McFadden

00:18:04.60

Yeah, oh yeah I do

Jason Camlot

00:18:05.36

For your reading?

David McFadden

00:18:08.02

Yes it did ring a bell for sure and I am trying to remember some of the people who I can remember there (laughing). George was there and um, Ricky

David McFadden

00:18:21.82

Roy would have been there for sure...maybe D.P was there?

George Bowering

00:18:21.82

Roy Kiookya was there

George Bowering

00:18:25.74

Might have been yeah. It was wonderful.

Jason Camlot

00:18:27.75

So was it bringing people in from out of town? Like certain readings would you say?

George Bowering

00:18:35.06

There were big crowds. It was well advertised around the town with the posters and so forth. All the old poets-the regular Montreal poets, at least the Anglophone poets would come to these readings and that was quite exciting so people like H.R. Scott, H.M Smith they came to these readings. I don't remember your friend Irving Layton coming all that often (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:19:02.38

Except to the ones he read in

George Bowering

00:19:04.19

Yeah (laughing)

 

Jason Camlot

00:19:08.39

Yeah, let- you introduced-I was playing some clips before and I thought it was a fun thing to do as a way of um, just reminding us or reminding you guys of what happened and I will try to find that one again. You introduced David when David came to read in 1971, do you remember how decisions about who was to be invited were made? I mean you were on the organizing committee so would you say that you'd have to bring David McFadden and read an-

George Bowering

00:19:43.43

Well i think, Roy Kiooyka and I were the experts on who the interesting Avant-guard poets were right?

Jason Camlot

00:19:55.15

Right

George Bowering

00:19:55.15

So we made-it was mostly what...people we wanted. Stan, there were some poets that Stan liked that were not in the Charles Olson um Allen Ginsburg line that we got, that were interesting poets. He was very much involved not just as a professor but as a reader of literature, especially American literature. So um, I don't remember Howard having that much input, but Howard was absolutely necessary for the series because he knew, he knew were all the strings were that we had to pull right? (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:20:29.40

Right

George Bowering

00:20:30.19

and he was a big fan too so that was wonderful. We opened the new American poetry anthology, the Donald Hall anthology and said um ok yeah! Robert Creeley, Robert Blaser, Jerome Rothenberg and so on and so forth

David McFadden

00:20:53.60

Who was Howard again?

Jason Camlot

00:20:53.60

Yeah swing down the list

 

George Bowering

00:20:54.36

Howard Fink

David McFadden

00:20:56.16

Oh, oh right

George Bowering

00:20:56.97

Who was, he still lives here he retired. He was older than I

Jason Camlot

00:21:03.05

He retired he still involved in the Canadian Centre for Broadcasting

George Bowering

00:21:07.23

That’s right! He went into radio, radio scripts and stuff

Jason Camlot

00:21:07.33

Yeah and he'll be at the reading tonight actually

Jason Camlot

00:21:11.69

He was one of the founding organizers of the series so the year before George came and so he-yeah he was involved in the first year. So do you remember in terms of choosing the interesting Canadian poets like how was David invited?

George Bowering

00:21:11.69

Oh yeah?

George Bowering

00:21:30.32

Well (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:21:33.18

It was a no brainer in other words?

George Bowering

00:21:34.37

Well he was almost thirty years old so he was a veteran

 

Unknown

00:21:39.12

Laughter

George Bowering

00:21:40.85

Um, there were just-it's funny these third-um...in a Canadian Avant-guard you had to make sure you got our core people.

Jason Camlot

00:21:55.25

Right

George Bowering

00:21:55.35

Right? So he would be one of them Victor Coleman would be one of them and Gerry Gilbert would be one of them and John Newlove would be one of them and so on and so forth and then...but there are other Canadian poets around who I am sure should be listened to. So we would get Margaret Atwood and so forth right? The other ones who were part of the Coach Houses Avant-guard. We used to say whom Coach House Press and Talon Books were publishing? Bill Bissett, B.P. Nichols (laughing). Curiously the Simon Fraser University library special collections is dedicated to exactly the same people in both American and Canadian

Jason Camlot

00:22:43.29

Yeah and apparently they have some audio holdings of some series which in many ways would be parallel you know? and not even parallel but analogist to the one here-

George Bowering

00:22:54.36

Well they have the Sir George Series on Tape right? They got it! (Laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:22:56.45

Yeah

George Bowering

00:23:00.05

But yeah they are the same people...one of the best collections of McFadden stuff is at Simon Fraser

David McFadden

00:23:11.87

Is that right eh?

George Bowering

00:23:12.07

There are some people who don't have some of your book could you imagine?

Merlin Homer

00:23:15.99

Including us

Unknown

00:23:16.29

Group Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:23:18.54

So can I play a clip? I played this earlier I think, lets see if this works....um it's not working. It was just basically going to play-oh there we go

George Bowering

00:23:40.70

Have you fiddled around with these things before? Have you touched a computer?

Merlin Homer

00:23:48.29

Do not let George touch it is what I think

Unknown

00:23:48.93

Group Laughter

Unknown

00:23:54.30

Clip Plays having Bowering introduce David McFadden and Jerry

David McFadden

00:24:15.76

I remember when you did that yeah

Jason Camlot

00:24:21.97

So you did a lot of the introductions from around 67 through 71 and one of the-it was one of the few readings were the readers decided to just go back and forth t through a few poems. What do you remember from that particular reading if anything?

 

George Bowering

00:24:34.20

Um, I was astounded that these guys were able to pull it off! (laughing). The other couple who did it were B.P Nichol and Lionel Kearns

 

Jason Camlot

00:24:45.28

That's right

George Bowering

00:24:47.02

And these guy really- like how in the world did you know Gerry? Except from to read him or see him at the Coach house or something like that...cause I don't think they-you never hung out with him much cause they lived three thousand miles apart right? But they were, they proved the, the animating force for our series, they proved that this was why this should be the series. It wasn't just oh random famous poets, they were poets that should be considered together and these guys proved that as did Lionel and B.P. They all lived in the same part of the poetry world-the good part.

David McFadden

00:25:36.05

You know what year was that event?

Jason Camlot

00:25:40.19

That one was 71

George Bowering

00:25:40.29

Oh 71, it was that late eh? Yeah that was my last year here

Jason Camlot

00:25:43.43

Yeah that was your last year

George Bowering

00:25:45.95

So you were just a young cub

David McFadden

00:25:49.61

Yeah well I was in Montreal from time to time, but I don't think I had been out to Vancouver yet

George Bowering

00:25:59.41

You hadn't been out there yet

David McFadden

00:25:59.51

No

George Bowering

00:25:59.61

So you probably- maybe that was the first time you were ever in the room with Gerry, maybe?

David McFadden

00:26:05.06

I think...I think probably yeah

George Bowering

00:26:06.39

Yeah

David McFadden

00:26:07.48

yeah I think that was yes

George Bowering

00:26:10.67

So see that is the testimony to-

Jason Camlot

00:26:12.41

So they just decided to go about it this way or-

George Bowering

00:26:16.52

Well Gerry was kind of that way about everything. Gerry Gilbert was friends with- here is what he was like because I did an anthology of these poets, Canadian poets, twenty of them or something like that and he being one of them and I asked Gerry and he said no. He didn't like doing things the regular way he started- he had a magazine he delivered at two in the morning because he didn't like doing things the normal way and it was hard to get him to publish a book. So it was probably Gerry's idea that you two do this right? And it worked! (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:26:59.07

Yeah, so you think it took place at the faculty club? Do you have any other memories, like concrete memories of that reading? It is hard to remember when you have done so many events over the years

George Bowering

00:27:08.50

Yeah I have the one that I keep reminding people of with what McFadden said after he finished reading

Jason Camlot

00:27:13.76

Which was what?

George Bowering

00:27:13.96

He said, "Well I made them laugh, I wish I could make them cry"

Unknown

00:27:20.62

Group Laughter

George Bowering

00:27:21.31

It was such a McFadden thing right? I will never forget that (laughter continues in background). That was one of the great moments in Canadian poetry! Yeah

George Bowering

00:27:33.91

Laughter

George Bowering

00:27:35.58

One poet in those years made me cry and that was George Oppen. I just sat there with tears pouring out of my eyes I just don't know why

David McFadden

00:27:43.47

What happened?

George Bowering

00:27:43.67

He was-it was-his poetry just made me cry

George Bowering

00:27:49.15

Yeah

David McFadden

00:27:49.15

Made you cry?

David McFadden

00:27:50.29

Oh I thought you meant he was crying

 

George Bowering

00:27:51.46

No made me cry. I don't know what-It wasn't about what it was about that's only happened to me maybe four times in my life, yeah. So once was hearing Ornette Coleman play when he was in his late seventies

David McFadden

00:28:05.43

No kidding

George Bowering

00:28:05.43

Another one was seeing a piece of sculpture in Italy. I don't usually do that...but...

David McFadden

00:28:18.04

Wow that's amazing (Series audio clip begins to play in background from laptop)

David McFadden

00:28:23.68

You're a good guy George! (clip continues to play in background)

George Bowering

00:28:23.82

What why because I cried? (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:28:26.38

Um do you know who this is? (Referencing clip playing in background)

David McFadden

00:28:26.38

Sure!

George Bowering

00:28:28.65

That's Roy

Jason Camlot

00:28:30.11

That's Roy

George Bowering

00:28:36.75

Yeah that's Roy (Laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:29:04.34

That’s Oppen

George Bowering

00:29:07.56

That is eh?

Jason Camlot

00:29:09.82

That's not the best quality recording

George Bowering

00:29:14.42

That was in a different room entirely. It faced that way and it was a long narrow room

Jason Camlot

00:29:16.82

faced West yeah?

George Bowering

00:29:16.92

It was a long, long narrow like, I think it was wider then it was deep this room I am not sure--yeah, which was the same room which B.P and Lionel read in, yeah I remember that, but I don't remember the name of it…

Jason Camlot

00:29:35.82

Do you have any...do you remember who would have been at the reading that David gave in the series? Like um, it sounded that at points different people were around or in town

George Bowering

00:29:48.12

I am pretty sure Artie Gold would have been there probably; maybe- I don't know if um, no I can't remember his name

David McFadden

00:30:00.17

Artie Gold was in Vancouver?

Jason Camlot

00:30:02.55

At your reading in Montreal

David McFadden

00:30:02.55

Oh right, right

George Bowering

00:30:03.18

Yeah and I am pretty sure he would have been at David's reading. Um, he certainly read his poetry...yeah. I don't know if Dwight Gardener was still here then or not, he might have already left town but if he were in town he would have been at the reading for sure.. Yeah. I wasn't- I didn't have a creative class, the only time I had a creative writing class I think-Oh no I had one! The second year I was here that's right but that was before this. I remember I took my creative writing class up to hear W.H. Auden and McGill was pissed off at me for wasting their time for which I gave them all an A. (laughter)

Unknown

00:30:50.40

Group Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:30:55.93

In general how would you describe the audiences of these events? What was the makeup? There was probably faculty members-

George Bowering

00:31:02.55

Jeez there were guys who were-they weren't-faculty members don't go to poetry readings

Jason Camlot

00:31:07.72

Well the ones who were organizing the series

George Bowering

00:31:09.21

Year they would, yeah, yeah, yeah but-

Jason Camlot

00:31:11.57

And they mentioned sort of the old guard poets who would show up from McGill

George Bowering

00:31:17.18

Yeah they would the series -there would be kids off the street, you know poetry kids off the street, and old, old guys so there was a range of guys from 80 to I don't know how old F.R. Scott was at the time but he was born in 1899 so (laughter). Young people and people from-Not an awful lot of Francophones that's the thing not an awful many of them but...there should of been there were a dew but not many. Maybe there were bilingual poets

Jason Camlot

00:31:52.38

Right, so like D.G. Jones maybe?

George Bowering

00:31:57.49

Yeah he came, he was there quite often and he had to come all the way in from Eastern Townships

Jason Camlot

00:31:58.99

Sherbrooke yeah

George Bowering

00:32:03.60

So um, and well...who- Ron Everson came the poet from here and- with one of the best of the older poets, and sometimes Ralph Goldstein

Jason Camlot

00:32:22.83

From the Townships as well

George Bowering

00:32:22.83

Yeah, Yeah

George Bowering

00:32:23.37

And of course he was one of the readers too. The guy- see when D.G. Jones lived out, wherever that place is overlooking the lake...

Jason Camlot

00:32:37.44

Was it Ayer's Cliff?

George Bowering

00:32:37.67

No

David McFadden

00:32:40.25

Ummm

George Bowering

00:32:41.84

What is it?

David McFadden

00:32:42.77

Um, Um, Ummm South of Montreal

George Bowering

00:32:44.36

(laughing) He had Gustafson on his neighbor on one side and this other guy who was a fiction writer on the other side and they'd all come in together I think

Jason Camlot

00:32:57.26

Hmm, ok

George Bowering

00:32:58.44

Yeah that was pretty neat

Jason Camlot

00:32:59.75

Yeah there was a small English language community in the Townships. I mean that was pretty significant actually

George Bowering

00:33:07.32

Yeah

David McFadden

00:33:07.32

Mhmm

George Bowering

00:33:09.90

So Doug is still alive he still lives out there

David McFadden

00:33:13.61

Really?

George Bowering

00:33:15.52

Yeah Doug is in his eighties now it is hard to believe God (laughing). He used to be a young poet and it took him years to get a book published by Coach House cause his- the women he was living with at the time thought that they were too low class so he was publishing poems with Oxford University Press. I would say, Jeez you're such a good poet you should be published by Coach House. She said, no, no I don't want him publishing with an outfit like that (whispered). That was a woman named Shelia Fishmen who is since won an awful lot of awards for translating (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:33:58.02

That's true his first-

George Bowering

00:34:01.55

(inaudible mumble while laughing)

Merlin Homer

00:34:01.75

Laughing

Jason Camlot

00:34:03.82

His first two books I think were Oxford U.P and then he started publishing with

George Bowering

00:34:08.68

Here in Niagara

Jason Camlot

00:34:10.47

Yeah Canadian Presses, that's right

George Bowering

00:34:10.87

Oxford University Press was a good poetry press I mean they published Margaret Atwood's poems. They published Pat lane's poems for awhile, but they were still Oxford university press right? They weren't Coach House (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:34:29.15

David do you have any memories of George reading his poetry?

David McFadden

00:34:35.33

Not a one

Unknown

00:34:35.95

Group Laughter

George Bowering

00:34:38.95

Have you ever read any of my poetry?

Unknown

00:34:39.66

Group Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:34:45.67

David this is George Bowering

Unknown

00:34:45.77

Laughter continues

George Bowering

00:34:47.81

He published me in his magazine Mountain that was named after a mythical geographical thing down around Hamilton (laughing). Yeah how old were you when you published Mountain? Like twenty, nineteen?

David McFadden

00:35:06.09

Something like that

George Bowering

00:35:06.29

Yeah publishing a literary magazine even when he was like nineteen (laughing) all typed out sideways it was wonderful!

Jason Camlot

00:35:15.12

When did you first hear about David McFadden? Like what was the thing that brought him to your attention do you remember?

George Bowering

00:35:19.71

We, We wrote each other for years before we ever met each other in the "flesh".

George Bowering

00:35:28.06

Yeah and maybe you sent your magazine to Tish or something? Might of been? Uh, except no...I think I knew you before we were doing Tish because we started Tish in 1961 or 2 so it might have been-I don't know-

David McFadden

00:35:28.06

That's right!

 

David McFadden

00:35:48.22

How many pages was that?

George Bowering

00:35:48.42

Uh, fourteen, what your magazine or our magazine?

David McFadden

00:35:50.49

Your-a Tish

George Bowering

00:35:51.69

Tish was always fourteen pages and always came out on the fourteenth day of the month. Have you ever seen Mountain magazine?

George Bowering

00:36:02.79

Yeah

Jason Camlot

00:36:02.79

Mhmm

David McFadden

00:36:02.89

Really!?

George Bowering

00:36:02.95

Yeah you see! (laughing)

David McFadden

00:36:05.02

Laughing

George Bowering

00:36:06.11

And Stewart our current publisher, he doesn't have a copy of Mountain magazine. You don't have any in your basement do you? Because he must of had a lot that didn't get distributed (laughing)

David McFadden

00:36:20.94

Laughing

George Bowering

00:36:22.62

Did it have a price on it Mountain or did you just give it away? Cause with Tish we just gave it away right?

David McFadden

00:36:29.95

Well I tried to give it away but-

George Bowering

00:36:32.33

Oh people wouldn't take it?

David McFadden

00:36:32.53

No people wouldn't take it

Unknown

00:36:33.49

Group Laughter

George Bowering

00:36:39.91

You should have said there will be a test! It was a good magazine I can't imagine a nineteen year old or twenty year old guy publishing a magazine as good now or then

David McFadden

00:36:53.99

(Looks touched) Jeez

George Bowering

00:36:54.09

No it was! You were a young genius guy

David McFadden

00:36:56.97

You are a good guy George

Jason Camlot

00:36:59.20

So what was the connection between do you think between you know, all these publishing activities the different kinds, the readings the events themselves um, the venues like the art galleries and the things would be taking place. They all seemed to be feeding each other you know?

 

George Bowering

00:37:14.25

You know what was in common with all of them and why it was such a great burst and it was never that great again I think? There was no money from the government or any public, there was no grant money, there was no Canada Council money any of that stuff and that's exactly what-

David McFadden

00:37:35.60

Yeah good thinking

George Bowering

00:37:35.80

Yeah, but Brian Fawcett years later when the Canada Council began paying the poets, paying the publishers, paying the bookstores, paying the universities and doing all that stuff that lead um, Brian Fawcett to start a magazine called NMFG, No Money from the Government and it carried on really what we did he rented out himself and distributed himself and that spirit put all these together. Amateurs ran the bookstores and the coffee shops and the magazines! And us amateurs wrote the poems right? Isn't that right?

David McFadden

00:38:22.71

Yeah

George Bowering

00:38:22.91

Yeah

David McFadden

00:38:24.33

You're an inspiration George

George Bowering

00:38:25.81

Yeah? (laughing)

David McFadden

00:38:28.39

You're bringing it all back! NMFG wow, wow...

George Bowering

00:38:35.48

Yeah! and some people would say NMFG does that stand for Not Much Fucking Good?

Unknown

00:38:41.70

Group Laughter

George Bowering

00:38:47.47

Yeah no it meant No Money From the Government yeah. What did you do with all the extra copies you had? If you go to Frank Davies basement you can usually find a lot of copies of his magazine

Merlin Homer

00:39:06.58

I think he has a bigger basement

George Bowering

00:39:07.86

Yeah (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:39:10.69

Before I ask David to go so I can just continue just interviewing you on your own-

George Bowering

00:39:17.51

I am doing too much talking

Jason Camlot

00:39:17.71

No, No I wanted to-I wanted to ask you another question about um, the qualities of David as a reader, as a performer and not just as a poet. How would you describe a David McFadden reading? What makes a David McFadden reading?

George Bowering

00:39:33.39

I have been to quite a few McFadden readings. He is-

David McFadden

00:39:41.04

Laughing

Jason Camlot

00:39:41.24

He is next to you so... (laughing)

George Bowering

00:39:44.40

He's always been a mystery to people and he has just scared some people, like some of the famous American poets

 

David McFadden

00:39:52.52

Come on!

George Bowering

00:39:54.75

Run out of his place screaming right? No because David like--he would…people would say, "Is he really this innocent?"

David McFadden

00:40:05.77

Laughing

George Bowering

00:40:07.35

And then in another moment they'd look at him and say "He knows everything…"

David McFadden

00:40:12.12

Laughing

George Bowering

00:40:13.50

And there was always…

George Bowering

00:40:16.39

…there is something like that in his readings too. He comes out like "Hi I am Dave from Hamilton" right?

Merlin Homer

00:40:16.39

That's true

Unknown

00:40:25.27

Laughter

George Bowering

00:40:25.37

And then he reads a poem that makes your socks unravel!

David McFadden

00:40:28.50

Laughing Loudly

George Bowering

00:40:30.50

You know what I mean? He has always had that sort of thing and some people are a little bit like, "wait a minute I better not turn my back on this guy!" (laughing). His readings have always been like that, he has this energy that you usually don't associate with absolutely perfect grammar, but he always has absolutely perfect grammar and perfect punctuation, perfect like he was a proof reader for years and years I guess that has something to do with it! But I don't know it must have been something other than that. He wanted to be a poet when he was a kid in high school or already was I guess.   So he had that-but he is the kind of guy who would see really ordinary things and you would say yeah, but he'd think they were marvelous and then he would say "Oh by the way" casually "I was talking to some fairies in my back garden"

Unknown

00:41:36.05

Group Laughter

David McFadden

00:41:40.68

I never said that!

George Bowering

00:41:43.27

Yeah! Well things like that (laughing). You see what I mean though that back and forth?

Jason Camlot

00:41:48.45

The supernatural would slip in there as his reality

George Bowering

00:41:56.32

I imagine Blake was probably that why right? Cause Blake would be sitting in his backyard with no clothes on and right there he'd start having conversations with ethereal creatures, as if they were normal everyday conversations right? I don't know if you ever had discussions with that silly thing you had up on your front lawn up on the Mountain?

David McFadden

00:42:17.34

Where was that?

George Bowering

00:42:18.81

(laughing) That little wheel barrel thing!

 

David McFadden

00:42:20.32

Oh! Right, right that thing!

David McFadden

00:42:24.17

It was a-

George Bowering

00:42:25.84

It had flowers in it or something right?

Merlin Homer

00:42:28.05

It is someplace because I have seen a picture of it

Jason Camlot

00:42:29.38

Is it on-

George Bowering

00:42:31.71

Is there a drawing? Greg drew a drawing of it?

David McFadden

00:42:32.84

Yes! Yes there is a drawing, it is the cover-it's the cover of a book

George Bowering

00:42:37.65

Oh I think it is! No it is a different version of the sonnets books cause there were three different versions of the sonnet books I heard

David McFadden

00:42:48.06

Yeah, Yeah

George Bowering

00:42:48.65

Of which I have like multiple copies

David McFadden

00:42:51.40

Oh jeez, I wish I had

George Bowering

00:42:52.94

(Laughter)

David McFadden

00:42:55.62

Can you give me one?

George Bowering

00:42:56.01

No I was thinking a little farther ahead then you were you know? As soon as it gets to- as soon as it tops four hundred dollars mark I will just let it go...I will put it on craigslist

David McFadden

00:43:08.04

Jeez

George Bowering

00:43:13.56

If you are especially nice to me you might get lucky someday

David McFadden

00:43:16.39

Oh...I don’t know (laughing)

Unknown

00:43:17.79

Group Laughter

Merlin Homer

00:43:22.27

Yeah George gives ear noogies

Unknown

00:43:24.06

Group Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:43:29.93

So does Margaret Atwood we heard about one before right?

Unknown

00:43:33.40

Laughter

George Bowering

00:43:33.40

Back in the days before we all got wired into the Facebook and all that stuff we used to write lots of letters back and forth to each other. Some of my-hundreds of letters from David over the years are now in the National Library so people can go in and I have no restrictions on them so people can go in and read that stuff. So if you want to do a thesis on him you can go in and read all that stuff

David McFadden

00:43:59.62

Lets go!

George Bowering

00:44:01.00

And you know what they were just like his poems these letters, no kidding! I mean some people are like that and some aren't but he was always like that his letters were just like his poems others people aren't but his were.

Jason Camlot

00:44:14.19

Were they mostly, this is a you know just a silly question, but were they mostly hand written or typed?

George Bowering

00:44:18.88

Oh yeah hand written, yeah-No both! Both, he had a stupid typewriter with a blue ribbon remember? I think you had a typewriter with a blue ribbon and one of the letters I can't remember what letter, but one letter used to pop up high on one of your typewriters

David McFadden

00:44:36.63

Oh jeez...

George Bowering

00:44:37.23

This would be back in like the seventies...I can't remember what letter it was but one letter used to be too high

George Bowering

00:44:47.17

It was a manually typewriter

David McFadden

00:44:47.17

I can't remember...

Jason Camlot

00:44:50.62

Yeah

David McFadden

00:44:50.82

I think you're right, but I am uncertain

George Bowering

00:44:52.20

I can't remember what letter it was! It was funny (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:44:56.46

One thing we were talking about before maybe I will close with-

George Bowering

00:44:59.46

On yellow paper! He used to write me on yellow paper, typing paper. Sometimes not always...

Jason Camlot

00:45:04.87

Blue ink on yellow paper that's-

Unknown

00:45:06.95

Group Laughter

George Bowering

00:45:08.60

You could get any color ribbon you wanted in those days in your typewriter. Sometimes we'd get the one that was black on the top and red on the bottom or whatever vice-versa

Jason Camlot

00:45:21.35

I thought I would maybe close with this question for the group interview. We were talking before about what it meant to be in the sixties a Canadian poet as opposed to just a poet or an American poet. In thinking about, one of the things that is obvious in David's poetry is that a lot of the poetry in the sixties and seventies is grounded in Canadian themes and very, as you pointed out, details of little towns in Ontario or Hamilton or whatever you know? That is one thing that defines him as a Canadian poet, but um, is that the best way to describe-or I guess really it is a question as to what it meant to be a Canadian poet in 1967 or 1971

George Bowering

00:46:10.62

He gets to go first. You get to go first! (pointing at David)

Jason Camlot

00:46:10.62

No I already asked him this question before

George Bowering

00:46:14.49

Oh you already did? Ok all right...

Unknown

00:46:16.71

Group laughter

Jason Camlot

00:46:22.62

I am really sort of asking your perspective about what made David McFadden a Canadian poet?

George Bowering

00:46:34.74

I have already had a little bit of wariness about that question. Certainly I could say that Dave's poetry in some ways- Dave's poetry will resemble another Canadians poetry more then it will another American or a Brit. On the other hand, some of David's poetry will resemble certain American poets more than it will certain Canadian poets...see what I mean?

Jason Camlot

00:47:03.86

Mhmm

George Bowering

00:47:04.06

So um, and for me the question was more- so when you say Canadian poet you mean not English or American right?

Jason Camlot

00:47:14.49

I was just wondering what that term meant at the time?

George Bowering

00:47:18.07

For me the choice was Canadian poet or West-Coast poet

Jason Camlot

00:47:24.76

So those two things were distinct in your mind?

George Bowering

00:47:30.45

Um, well certainly um-I have a big collection of books which is scheduled to go somewhere and it will- (knocks on table) to be kept somewhere and it will contain all of his poems, all of his books that I got and all of Fred Wall's books I got, all Phyllis’s Webb's books but they're all sorts of Canadian poets that I read that aren't going to be in that collection. This is similar with the Americans so there will be sort of a group of Americans and other kinds of poets and writers some Canadian that will be like my group. So it is a question like my citizenship is in the group rather than that I was officially a Canadian poet at one time right? (laughter) Like for a couple of year in Parliament is all. See this is a vexing question, Hemingway was an American writer right? But how much of his writing takes place in the United States? Hardly any right? So what we've done, what Canadians have always done is if some Brit comes over here for a little while we call him a Canadian writer. Even if he was say from Northern Ireland, came to Montreal for awhile and then moved to California we still give him-- you know he is a Canadian writer.

Jason Camlot

00:49:07.28

Yeah

George Bowering

00:49:07.48

Or if on the other hand if the writer was here and went somewhere else to live for their entire life like Mavis Gallant-Canadian writer! Right? Um, so we take-I am surprised that we haven't taken Faulkner and Hemingway because they lived in Canada for awhile or what's his name was born in the greater Montreal region...what’s his name who won the noble prize from Chicago?

Jason Camlot

00:49:33.39

Saul Bellow?

David McFadden

00:49:34.02

Oh yeah

George Bowering

00:49:34.02

Yeah Saul Bellow right? He lived in Lachine or something like that up until the age of six right? So- actually I did see at the UBC library his books in the Canadian lit section

Jason Camlot

00:49:49.65

Oh really?

George Bowering

00:49:49.85

Yeah they changed it after that

David McFadden

00:49:51.45

Have you ever read any of his books?

George Bowering

00:49:52.87

Yeah um, I-not lately but I did back-I am much more of a Philip Roth guy

David McFadden

00:49:59.49

Mm

George Bowering

00:50:01.02

I adore Philip Roth, I like them both but I like Roth better. There is an example! Philip Roth will not be in my collection right?

David McFadden

00:50:14.75

Why not?

George Bowering

00:50:14.75

But my Jack Kerouac books will. That might have been one of the things that first got you and me together was Kerouac?

David McFadden

00:50:24.39

Yeah

George Bowering

00:50:24.39

Yeah (laughing) cause Kerouac thought he was the shining boy right?

Jason Camlot

00:50:29.68

Yeah well David was letting me about his early correspondence with Kerouac

George Bowering

00:50:32.31

Yeah, yeah (laughing) He doesn't write at all like Kerouac though right? there was a time when I used to imitate Kerouac for a little bit right? But you never really imitated him or maybe you thought you were and you didn't

David McFadden

00:50:46.05

I think, um, from the beginning I was yeah-

George Bowering

00:50:51.39

Yeah! Your opening to Buddhism and all that stuff

David McFadden

00:50:52.84

Yeah

George Bowering

00:50:54.16

Yeah that's right I forgot about that

David McFadden

00:50:56.96

I gave it up after

George Bowering

00:51:03.42

So a Canadian writer I just say...if the person has a Canadian citizenship they're a Canadian writer (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:51:14.43

So what would make David McFadden stay in the library that would be placed in a more permanent spot?

George Bowering

00:51:19.83

I keep getting asked this question, when we started the special collections at Simon Fraser other English professors come to us and say, "Why isn't Margaret Atwood in that collection?" and it was hard to explain that it somehow- I don't know what is the world of poetry that we are in...Dennis Lee is not in that collection right? It is just certain people. Whereas Victor Coleman is and a person who is one the edge who might not be anymore is Mike Godachi right? Who at one time was right in the middle of that and not he seems to have-

Merlin Homer

00:52:02.62

George I was thinking, cause I was recently reading Margaret Atwood's poetry, and I was so surprised that I was disappointed in it. Cause I remember it was like a movie that you saw when you were twelve and it was amazing and then you see it-is it that some of these people were people of that moment and-

George Bowering

00:52:28.25

Well I like her poetry, it's-

Merlin Homer

00:52:30.11

But there is something, I think I know what you mean that some people have-

George Bowering

00:52:34.18

Well it's also like who does these people chose to associate themselves with and what magazines were they in and who were they friends with and who is in their collection and so forth. Sometimes like this series here had a little bit of that, it had- it was non-reaching enough to have the non-hip (laughing) or whatever you say! I know what you mean though about- although I do like her poetry better then her novels and I like her short stories better then her novels and I like her experiments that are not quite short stories better then her short stories (laughing) like Marrying the Hangman and all that sort of thing. So she is almost...but she is not you know?

George Bowering

00:53:25.30

She is a friend of mine and we have known each other for as long as...god knows as long as I have known this kink (references David).

Merlin Homer

00:53:27.76

So is it a scholarly distinction a taste distinction?

George Bowering

00:53:27.76

it is kind of a....what is my poetry world? Um, but it is also- but other people agree with you! I think Coach House Press has been ruined now I don't know where it is now they're somewhere else. If you look at the Coach House Press of people the published in the sixties and seventies there they are! Everyone once in awhile an American poet would be published by Coach House, but they were still part of the community. I mean one of them was Allan Ginsburg for instance...hard to describe.

George Bowering

00:54:27.26

If you look at the New American Poetry published which came out in 1960 and another anthology had come out the year before called New Poems of England and America, Donald Hall was the editor. There is not one American poet in Hall's anthology who is also in the New American Poetry anthology, that was an instructive moment for me right? That was a (makes explosion sound) moment in 1960, except of course our tradition goes back to Ezra Pound, William Carlos Williams and H.D and Gertrude Stein right? Whereas their tradition goes back to other-like Robert Frost (laughing)

Jason Camlot

00:55:04.76

Right, yeah

George Bowering

00:55:08.19

Yeah, yeah

 

Jason Camlot

00:55:10.49

Um, I am just looking at the time and I do want to have time to talk to George alone so would it be ok to stop it at this point for now?

George Bowering

00:55:21.34

I did too much talking

David McFadden

00:55:27.00

No, no you were fine

George Bowering

00:55:27.20

I will let you do most of the talking tonight

Unknown

00:55:27.30

Laughter

Merlin Homer

00:55:29.87

David's going oh yippie!

David McFadden

00:55:37.80

I don't talk anymore

George Bowering

00:55:37.80

But when you do it is like-

David McFadden

00:55:37.80

Perfect

Unknown

00:55:37.90

Laughter

Jason Camlot

00:55:42.60

You were great David today thank you so much for your time!